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Mike Howell (00:08):
The Dirt, with me, Mike Howell. An eKonomics podcast where I present the down and dirty agronomic science to help grow crops and bottom lines. Inspired by ekonomics.com, farming’s go-to informational resource, I’m here to break down the latest crop nutrition research, news, and issues, helping farmers make better business decisions through actionable insights. Let’s dig in. Welcome back to The Dirt, listeners. We’re glad you’re tuning in this week. We’ve got another exciting episode talking about agriculture sustainability. We’ve spent a couple of weeks talking about sustainability so far, and we have another guest with us here today, who are going to give us a little different perspective on sustainability. Today we’re pleased to have Dr. Sally Fliss joining us. Sally, how are you this morning?
Dr. Sally Fliss (00:59):
I’m good, Mike, how are you?
Mike Howell (01:01):
I’m doing great. If you would tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do with Nutrien Ag Solutions?
Dr. Sally Fliss (01:07):
Sure. So, I’ve been with Nutrien Ag Solutions for about two years now, and I work in our retail facing, grower facing, sustainability programs that we roll out to the field. I live in western New York, and we’re all a remote team. We’re not a big team. I think there’s nine of us total that work with the field on trying to increase the understanding and awareness of sustainable ag. Talk about the carbon programs, other programs that we have going on to help downstream partners, those millers, and processors, and consumer packaged good companies meet their sustainability goals with the good work that we know our growers are doing in the field, or in the case of a carbon program, encourage a grower to make a practice change that can help us generate some carbon credits and extra revenue for those growers in addition to the environmental benefits that we can report on. So, it’s pretty dynamic workspace, lots going on all the time, because it’s a pretty hot button issue with lots of consumer and investment pressure on the reporting that we do as a company overall around our sustainability metrics.
Mike Howell (02:18):
Never a lack of something to do, it doesn’t sound like.
Dr. Sally Fliss (02:21):
Nope.
Mike Howell (02:22):
I also understand that you have a podcast of your own that you put out. Tell us a little bit about this podcast, when it airs, and what you discuss on your podcast?
Dr. Sally Fliss (02:31):
We do. Our podcast is called The Future Faster. I think if you search for the future faster now you will actually find it, but if you just search for Nutrien Ag Solutions in your podcast platform of preference, it’ll come up. I host it with my colleague Tom Daniel, and Tom is our director of sustainable ag and manages the field team and works with all of our different branches and region managers and division managers to really get the programs that we design out in the field and get growers signed up for them. Our podcast comes out every other week on Wednesdays, and we’re actually headed to do some pretty exciting video sessions this weekend, which will give us a little bit different aspect to what we’ve recorded. We’ve been recording for just a little over a year now, so I think we’re at 28 episodes or 30 episodes total that are available, and our podcast focuses on sustainability, carbon and the carbon markets, how some of the testing and programs that we have available and products we have available as Nutrien Ag Solutions can help build that sustainability outcome for a grower.
Mike Howell (03:39):
I want to encourage all of our listeners to reach over and check that podcast out as well. Really some great information coming to us on that podcast. We’ve been talking about sustainability for a couple of weeks now, and one question that I’m asking all of my guests, Sally, is what is sustainability, and what does sustainability mean to you? We know everybody has a little different definition of sustainability, so if you would just tell us in your own words what sustainability means to you?
Dr. Sally Fliss (04:05):
I always go back to that three-legged stool definition of social, economic and environmental outcomes, because if we’re missing one of those pieces, it makes it really hard to have a whole sustainable system. And the other piece that we always talk about is, it’s really got to be a whole acre solution, where we’re already working with those growers 365 days a year, our crop consultants, to bring them advice as they need it, and how do we make sure that we’re always thinking about how these things tie together. I think one of the biggest challenges we see in sustainability and environmental reporting is, everybody just wants that one thing. If we just get everybody to do cover crops, or if we just get everybody in the country to use a nitrification inhibitor will solve all of our nitrogen and phosphorus problems. Well, it’s not that simple.
(04:55):
There’s so many dynamics in that grower’s operation, in that field, in some parts of that field where we really need to think about what is the resource concern that that grower has or that field has, and then solve for that with all the different tools that we have available. And that resource concern might be financial, it might be having enough labor, it might be they’re close to a water body. The list of things that can be a resource concern really needs to be expanded as we think about how we’re going to meet sustainability goals all the way from a field level up through our corporate reporting, our ESG reporting every year. Because, if we don’t address the correct resource concern and think about how all these different dynamics play off of one another, we end up creating some pretty difficult to manage unintended consequences.
(05:46):
Think about some of our freshwater systems where we have these big summer algal blooms that we’re coming out of right now, and those are driven by the loss of soluble phosphorus. And if we have too many practices that let soluble phosphorus run off the surface, we have more algal blooms. Those practices reduce tillage cover crops are all really good for soil health and sequestering carbon, but there’s a trade-off there, so we always have to be thinking about more than just this is the practice that’s being recommended as being sustainable, and think about how does it fit with the resource concerns and the needs of that grower, and what are the other things that are going to have to change to make that practice happen? One of the questions we always get is, well, why won’t growers just reduce nitrogen fertilizer rate? And it’s like, well, it’s not that easy.
(06:36):
It’s a whole conversation with that grower about, what are their abilities to change up, do a split application of nitrogen, use a different source, use a nitrification inhibitor. There’s still a lot of understanding to build around sustainability and practice change. It’s a long conversation. It’s three, five, 10 conversations, so that the crop consultant and the grower make sure they’re getting to the right place while meeting some of those environmental outcomes.
Mike Howell (07:06):
Sally, you mentioned a couple of factors there, and our previous podcast we’ve talked about the four R nutrient management concept, and you just mentioned the right place and the right source. Is the four R program something that you all work with as well?
Dr. Sally Fliss (07:19):
It is. And one of the things that we’re looking at is, how do we get programs like the concepts of source, rate, time and placement, the four Rs really incorporated into some of these carbon registries that we’re working with, because they all want to focus on that easy, the one actual R. They all want to focus on rate. They all just want to say, simple equation for reducing environmental impact is just reduce rate, whether we’re talking nitrogen or phosphorus, but the problem is it’s not that simple. We want to maintain or grow yield, and we can often have a bigger impact on reducing our environmental footprint by employing the other three Rs, right source, right rate, right time, than we can have by just reducing rate in the first place. It is a super important part of how we are talking with growers about implementing programs, and how we’re talking to some of the registries around carbon or regulatory bodies. If we really want the best environmental outcomes and to be more sustainable, we got to consider more than just rate.
Mike Howell (08:26):
I’m glad you mentioned that. That’s one of the hardest things to get a grower to think about is cutting back on the rate. We’ve got to keep these yields up, and most growers understand if we cut the rate of this nitrogen, we’re going to start cutting yields and yields are what drives their bottom line, so that’s what they get paid for. Sally, I know you work with Nutrien Ag Solutions, that’s a branch of Nutrien, the company that I work for, but why is sustainability so important for Nutrien Ag Solutions? What is Nutrien Ag Solutions getting out of this?
Dr. Sally Fliss (08:56):
Well, it really ties together Nutrien Ag Solutions and Nutrien. So, as a company, we’re all traded as one entity on the stock market. Our stock value is all the same. We don’t have a separate stock price or trading platform for Nutrien Ag Solutions. One of the things that’s driving that stock value is, how are we meeting some of these environmental ESG reporting goals? And so, one of the advantages we have as Nutrien and Nutrien Ag Solutions working together to achieve those goals is that direct connection to the grower. There’s not many other ag-based companies that are producers of product like Nutrien is on the wholesale and manufacturing side that have that direct connection to growers. Most of them are selling to somebody like a Nutrien Ag Solutions to an ag retailer. And so, being able to report on how their products are used in the field effectively and efficiently is harder for a lot of other fertilizer or agricultural product manufacturers than it is for us.
(09:59):
It’s a combination of reporting on what are growers already doing really well in the field and seeing how we can continue to push that needle. The value for us as Nutrien Ag Solutions is one, helping contribute to that reporting and overall company value that comes with the stock value and the environmental reporting we do around investor relations and those types of things, but it’s also bringing some of these unique products we have to the field that can help drive efficiency and let us get more yield per acre with lower inputs and help build soil health and other benefits that we can have from some of the products that are available through our Loveland products line.
Mike Howell (10:41):
Sally, I know you have several programs that you’re working with as part of Nutrien Ag Solutions, and one that I hear a lot about these days is the carbon program, and you mentioned that earlier in the episode. Let’s talk about the carbon program a little bit. And if you would, tell our listeners what’s involved in this carbon program?
Dr. Sally Fliss (10:59):
We’re really trying to get to that verified, validated outcome that we have a third party verification involved in an order for us to either be able to officially report on those in our environmental outcomes reports that we do, or for us to be able to sell to another person that needs a carbon offset, or for us to partner with food companies or other food manufacturing entities in the supply chain and offset everybody’s emissions from the use of nitrogen fertilizer in the field. Currently, where our biggest program in the field is our sustainable nitrogen outcomes program where we are asking growers for rate reduction, but it’s coupled with the use of either a nitrification inhibitor or a slow controlled release fertilizer. It’s a minimum of a 5% rate reduction combined with, you can either add that nitrification inhibitor or they can use a slow controlled release product like ESN that we have in order to enhance the efficiency even at a lower rate.
(12:02):
There we’re generating carbon equivalent credits based on reductions in nitrous oxide emissions from fertilizer use. There’s a couple of things that make it a little bit easier than a lot of the other carbon programs, because it’s just around nitrogen fertilizer use. The additionality or the new practice that a grower has to have in order to participate is that 5% rate reduction. So, that’s a pretty easy entry point compared to, do you want to transition your farm to reduce tillage or no tillage, or do you want to start planting a cover crop? Those two practices have a lot more whole acre solution to them, figuring out how you’re going to manage new changes in soil management.
(12:45):
It’s a little bit easier entry point, it’s a little bit less data. The grower only needs to provide some historical nitrogen rate and yield numbers for the last three years, and then all the passes that happen on that field for that crop production season versus when we look at our soil organic carbon programs, we’re looking for somewhere between eight and 12 years worth of cropping, either history and planning forward or just overall records in order to model things out and see how much carbon we’re going to sequester in the soil. So, as a nitrogen manufacturer, we thought this nitrogen management program was a nice fit, and we’ve got some good products to help a grower make a slight rate reduction, but still achieve the yield goals that they want to see in the field.
Mike Howell (13:31):
What kind of results have we seen from the program?
Dr. Sally Fliss (13:34):
Right now we’re in the process of getting our 2021 pilot acres that were involved in making a rate reduction in using some of these enhanced efficiency products through our verification and validation program. Pretty soon we are hopefully in the next couple of months we’re going to have some credits that we’re going to be able to trade. It’s not a huge emission reduction with our carbon equivalent with the nitrogen management piece. We’re seeing somewhere between 0.1 and 0.25 tons per acre in our emission reductions depending on the combination that that grower chooses to pick for management, so it’s not a huge amount of payment compared to some of the other programs out there, because we’re really paying for that carbon equivalent outcome. Our current value per ton of carbon is $25 a ton, so if you do the math, we’re somewhere between two and $4 an acre.
(14:30):
It’s not an enormous payment when you consider what commodity values are right now, but it is an easier program and a lower data lift than a lot of the other programs out in the field. What we’re seeing is growers being able to tie together the management decisions that they’re making across the board, and hopefully get us to some validated credits that we’re either able to keep ourselves or that we’re able to sell to a third party. And the credits that we’re generating from this program are scope one credits, so we could sell them to an airline, we could sell them to another ag company. We can sell them to anybody who has a scope one goal of reduced emissions. And so, we can really start to see where that value is going to be for growers.
Mike Howell (15:16):
Elaborate on that a little bit. What is the value for growers? What are growers going to gain from this program?
Dr. Sally Fliss (15:22):
The growers are going to gain the payment per acre for the outcome that they’re able to achieve from the improved nitrogen management. And like I said, that’s going to range somewhere between that two and $4 an acre, depending on the percent rate reduction they pick, and if they choose to add a nitrification inhibitor or ESN slow controlled release type product. There’s also some additional incentives to use some of our Loveland products in order to achieve that rate reduction and still maintain or grow crop yields. We do have our Nitrain Bullet product, which is the nitrification inhibitor. So, if you choose to make a rate reduction and use our nitrification inhibitor and the Nitrain Bullet, you get an extra dollar an acre on top of what you’re getting paid for your outcomes. I think one of the biggest values, and it’s hard to put a monetary amount on this, is learning how as that team, the grower, and the crop consultant, and our team that runs these programs is how to manage data.
(16:20):
Because, there isn’t a single carbon program out there, whether it’s ours or somebody else’s, or these new programs that are going to come out from the climate smart commodities grants that aren’t going to require a pretty big data lift. The sooner that growers, and their crop consultants, and their management’s team start figuring out what the best way to collect and manage that data and have evidence for it is, the easier it’s going to be for them to get involved as there’s more and more dollars available for conservation and climate related activities, because without the data, growers aren’t going to get paid for anything. It doesn’t matter how great their practices are. If they can’t collect and share the data and provide some evidence to show what they really did, they’re not going to get paid.
Mike Howell (17:06):
We have a lot of growers that are listening to this. If somebody isn’t in the program and wants to take advantage of this program, how do they get signed up? What can a grower do to take advantage of this program?
Dr. Sally Fliss (17:15):
The best place to start is always reach out to their crop consultant and see what information that crop consultant has. But, the other place to submit that they’re interested in signing up for the program is @nutrienagsolutions.com/sno. When they get to that website, it’s going to explain what the program is a little bit more, and there’s also a little survey on there that they can fill out and get submitted to our customer success team, and then we’ll follow up with them and their crop consultant to figure out what is that best combination of products and practices for them to implement and start initiating some of that data collection.
Mike Howell (17:51):
This is just one of the programs that you’re working on. Are there any other programs you want to talk about while we’re here today?
Dr. Sally Fliss (17:57):
Our other big program that we have is around winter wheat and spring wheat, and it’s working with a milling company, Ardent Mills. Ardent Mills is based in Denver, Colorado. We’re doing a little bit of everything. There’s some carbon stuff we’re doing with them in this sustainable nitrogen outcomes program, and also looking at some no-till practices or cover crop practices with them. We can pay growers to just help get that data collected, so that we can show how much better growers are performing in the field versus some of these survey type data that companies use to figure out where they’re at with sustainability, which is based on some pretty old USDA data.
(18:38):
But, the bulk of those acres for, it’s winter wheat and spring wheat production across the country we’ve got 13 different geographies we’re working in there, including Canada, where growers can just get paid a couple of dollars an acre to provide their data into our sustainable ag platform, Agrible, and help us help these milling companies and their downstream partners tell that sustainable ag story of what’s already occurring in the field. We do have a couple of soil carbon programs, but those are pretty small right now. We’ll be expanding all these programs going into 2023, but currently that Ardent Mills winter wheat data collection program, spring wheat data collection program, and our sustainable nitrogen outcomes are our two biggest programs in the field.
Mike Howell (19:23):
Sally, you’ve told us a lot of information today. What’s the take home message that you want to make sure everybody gets from this program today?
Dr. Sally Fliss (19:30):
Start collecting data. Start figuring out what you have for data. And make sure as you look at any carbon program, whether it’s one that we’re offering or it’s another one in the field that you really, growers and your crop consultant have a good understanding of what is the data lift requirement? What is the length of time you’re committing to? Because, even though they might be offering a little bit higher payment, there’s generally more work involved there. So, really take the time to figure out not just the payment you’re going to get per acre when you participate, but what is the time it’s going to cost you and commitment to that program in the field.
Mike Howell (20:09):
Sally, that’s a lot of information that you’ve given us, and talked about a lot of the programs that Nutrien Ag Solutions is offering to growers and helping growers become more sustainable in their farming practices. Growers, we hope you’ve learned a lot from this, and can pick up on a thing or two that make it be implemented on your farm and help improve your practices as well. Sally, each week we’ve started talking about our tailgate at our local high school football game, and what we do is talk about the menu that we’re cooking this week, and talk about one dish, one commodity, and relate that back to agriculture. Do you have a favorite football team?
Dr. Sally Fliss (20:43):
I live in western New York, Mike, so we are following the Bills pretty close as they’ve really gotten geared up to be one of the top teams over the last couple of years. It’s looking like a pretty exciting season for us here in Buffalo.
Mike Howell (20:57):
Do you ever get to go to games, do any kind of tailgating?
Dr. Sally Fliss (21:00):
We missed our chance on games, Mike, four or five years ago when Josh Allen first joined the team and we were still building a team, same day tickets you could get for $7. I don’t even want to look at ticket prices right now with how well the team is doing, so we just tailgate from home most of the time.
Mike Howell (21:19):
What’s your favorite tailgate dish?
Dr. Sally Fliss (21:21):
We are big fans of nachos ourselves. We’re all about something that involves cheese generally when we’re having some snacks.
Mike Howell (21:29):
Sounds good. Well, we have actually had nachos several weeks ago on our tailgate. But, this week I thought what we were going to do at this week’s tailgate, and for our listeners that have heard all of these episodes, you know I’ve done pork chops before, but we are going to do pork chops again, but I’m going to do them a little different this time. We’re going to get the grill out and I’ve got a bunch of pork chops that we’ve had cut about an inch and a half thick. So, a really thick pork chop, and I’m going to butterfly that pork chop and make a little pocket in there so that I can stuff that pork chop. Now, different people stuff their pork chops with different things, but the only thing I can think of that makes a pork chop better is more pork. So, I’m going to stuff that pork chop with some good spicy pork sausage. And then, the only thing that’s going to make that much pork even better is more pork.
(22:14):
So, I’m going to wrap the whole thing with bacon, get that bacon wrapped around it, and we’re going to put that on the grill and cook that real slow so that everything has time to cook and get all those flavors throughout the whole piece of meat. We’re also going to cook some baked sweet potatoes before we get to the tailgate, and we’ll put those on the grill and warm those back up. We’re going to have pork chop and baked sweet potatoes this week at the tailgate. The commodity that we wanted to talk about this week is the pork. Now, we’ve talked about pork several times, different dishes that we’re using with pork, but we haven’t talked about the pork industry that much. When we look at the pork industry, it’s a lot different than things like the beef industry. A cow will take close to 18 months before it’s ready to be put to market, be slaughtered.
(22:57):
When we’re looking at pigs on the average, it’s going to take about six months from the time they’re born until they’re ready to be slaughtered. The U.S. produces about $23 billion in gross output every year in the pork industry. On average, Americans will consume about 49 pounds of pork per year. In the pig production, it all starts with a farrowing stage. That’s when the pigs are born, and each sow will have about 11 to 13 pigs in that litter. After a few weeks, these piglets are weaned from their mother and they’re put on a diet of corn and soybean meal, two other commodities that we spend a lot of time talking about.
(23:32):
They’re fed on this for a few weeks till they get weaned from their mother and then they go to the finishing operation where they’re fed on this same diet of corn and soybean meal. They also get some added vitamins and other nutrients that they need to make sure that their diet is complete. So, I want to give a shout-out today to the pig industry, one of the most versatile meats that we have. I really enjoy all the pork that we consume around here. So, Sally, do you have any experience in the swine industry?
Dr. Sally Fliss (23:59):
Nothing too direct, but we are working on some sustainability projects right now with some partners, getting them developed for the next couple of cropping seasons where we’re going to be looking at, how can we reduce that impact from the grain that the pigs are getting fed and carry that through for a more sustainable product.
Mike Howell (24:18):
All of these farming practices work hand in hand, whether it’s row crop agriculture or animal agriculture. Another Friday night and another victory for the Poplarville Hornets. This week they defeated Forrest County Aggies by a score of 41 to seven. The Hornets are really on a roll. Going through district play, they’re now three in all in the district. They only have two more regular season games. They have already secured a spot in the playoffs. They’re looking for more now. They’re trying to bring home this district title here in the next couple of weeks and lock up the number one seed going into the playoffs. Now, I want to remind everyone to tune back in next week as we continue our series on sustainable agriculture. We’ll have another great tailgating recipe for you, as well as updates from this week’s football game. Until next time, this has been Mike Howell with The Dirt.
